Last year around this time, I was honored to welcome author, activist, and Hoosier native
to the podcast. His political and historical writings are essential material for any subscriber to this show, but this particular conversation focused on his 2019 memoir, The Man They Wanted Me to Be: Toxic Masculinity and a Crisis of Our Own Making.In the wake of last month’s disastrous election (and the Thanksgiving holiday effecting my recording schedule), I thought it would be a good time to pull this one from the archive, with a bit of mishmashed old AND new commentary on either side.
Make no mistake - MEN have delivered our country to the brink of fascism. Like the Pied Piper of noxious virility, the Trump campaign (and Republicans down-ballot) explicitly wooed male voters by playing a tune of unrepentant male pride, privilege, and power. Now, white men have always served as the largest bloc in Trump’s base, but the most recent election saw him make modest gains with Black men and significant improvement with Latino men and, most troublingly, with young men.
Much of this shift has been attributed to the “manosphere,” a loose network of websites, blogs, forums, and podcasts nominally dedicated to topics of male interest like sports, video games, gambling, and ogling women, but practically dedicated to cultivating grievance and misogyny in lonely young men. Joe Rogan, wittingly or not, sits at the center of this universe and many of the pick-up artists, incels, men’s rights activists, and fitness grifters that populate this space have appeared on his show or one of many spun off by his regular guests.
Fascism IS political toxic masculinity and getting through America’s bout with autocracy will depend on breaking the grip these old ways of thinking hold over so many of the men in this country. Before we begin, let’s define toxic masculinity - what it is, and what it is not.
According to the Anxiety and Depression Association of America, “toxic masculinity is the way men are culturally trained and socially pressured to behave,” and there are three core tenets. The first is toughness: strength, aggression, emotional hardness - that tough it out, suck it up, boys don't cry attitude - repression of emotions, anger as the only acceptable emotion to display, shame if you have other emotions that you encounter and don't know how to deal with, and the rejection of empathy, not being able to think about what it would be like in another person's body,
The second tenet is anti-femininity - the rejection of traditionally feminine traits, including emotion, cooperation, accepting help, and domesticity. This can manifest itself in many ways, such as refusing medical treatment; rejection of mental health therapy as legitimate; risky lifestyle choices like dangerous sports, gambling, gun stuff, drug & alcohol abuse, or even mundane things like a poor diet - I literally know dudes in their 60s who have NEVER eaten a salad. All of these rely on an air of invincibility, invulnerability.
And the third point is power- as in, men are only worthy if they have money, status, influence, women. This can look like controlling or entitled behavior in professional settings, social settings, and even in one's romantic life. So that's your textbook academic definition of what toxic masculinity is.
There seems to be some confusion with many folks that think we're calling traditionally masculine traits toxic. And that's not the case. Toxic masculinity is not, say, being attracted to women, or working out and being muscular, or playing sports or watching sports, or being competitive; owning a gun, preferring action movies to rom-coms, hard work, self-reliance, being a breadwinner; stoicism, being a man of few words, courage, sacrifice, being a protector, being logical or analytical, having self-confidence or swagger.
None of these traits are toxic in and of themselves. What is toxic is to think that there is only way to be a man, that these traits need to be maxed out and all others suppressed, or that the societal problems wrought by 50 years of neoliberal hyper-capitalism are all women’s fault for entering the workplace and emasculating poor Joe Punchclock.
Jared and I will dive into all of that in this remastered interview, now with video and improved sound quality, but before we jump to it, PLEASE consider supporting HoosLeft with a paid subscription. I currently work as an independent craftsman to pay the bills and work on this project whenever I can. There are so many more things I want to do here at HoosLeft - more campaign finance research, more live hangouts, and a daily episode if we can get there -but I need your help to build this thing. If you can, visit scottaaronrogers.substack.com and subscribe at the paid level. For five dollars a month or $50 a year, you can help me push our state in a better direction, and maybe if we reach critical mass, I can put down my tool belt and devote my full time to you, to this project, and to Indiana’s future. So, if you have the means, pause right now, go to scottaaronrogers.substack.com and subscribe at the paid level.
You know, pundits have been complaining, in print, about the wussification of men since at least the 1880’s, blaming everything from Marxism, juice boxes, and toiletries to high-rise apartments, safety razors, and the lack of raw meat in one’s diet. There is a crisis in masculinity - women have greater levels of educational attainment, have lower rates of unemployment, and live longer lives, while men increasingly succumb to substance abuse and addiction and are four times more likely than females to die by suicide - but none of these are the reason.
Between the second wave feminism of the 1960s and 70s, the offshoring of manufacturing jobs since the Reagan era, and the changing nature of work in a world of automation, I think in a way women have evolved or leveled up, as it were. They’ve gone into the workplace and become breadwinners and leaders and have been able to use the full range of both traditionally-masculine and traditionally-feminine characteristics while men have struggled along as a sort of half-people, unable to tap into that other part of ourselves, those “feminine” traits that have been conditioned out of us since we were babies.
Men’s confusion in changing times, our inability to adapt, to find our full selves, has been weaponized by fascists and manosphere grifters, using 21st century technology to amplify those old Victorian-era concerns about men becoming soft. They’ve turned this narrative into a full-blown “war on men” in order to sell susceptible dudes the implements for fighting this farcical war. You don’t need to change, to improve, to engage in some self-reflection. There’s nothing wrong with you that can’t be fixed by what these guys are peddling. It’s woke liberal society that’s the problem.
Capitalism - always there to sell you the newest solution to a problem it created.
Look, I’m not here to lecture other dudes, but to empathize. I'm still there. I still struggle with it. I think for a lot of guys that don't participate in some of the most boorish behavior - the violence, the boys don't cry attitude, the overt misogyny and homophobia - there is a tendency to see only this tip of the iceberg.
I think incel culture morphs out of this. Certain young men see how gross those things are, reject that over-the-top chauvinist version of masculinity, and think that alone makes them some enlightened prince entitled to the affection of some distressed damsel, done dirty by a dastardly lothario. If she’s not interested, the “nice guy” shtick falls away quickly. I can easily see how I could have gotten caught up in that movement if I were 10-20 years younger.
Incels cleared step one and thought they had scaled the whole mountain. Step two is to realize the mountain is an underwater volcano. Like we were talking about, does a fish know it's wet? As men in America in particular, but the West in general, we were born swimming in it. We’ve all been done a disservice by the culture we were raised in. And I'll be honest, I kind of feel like I have a bad case of imposter syndrome coming out here and talking about this as if I were some sort of expert on the topic, like I’ve conquered or evolved past toxic masculinity.
I'm not over it. I don’t know if one can ever get over it, only be aware of it and keep doing the work. An hour before my interview with Jared, I was in a marriage counseling session with my wife. She will be the first to tell you I'm still struggling with these things. You know, I struggle to identify my own emotions - I work on this with my therapist. It’s easy to identify anger - as men we’re allowed that one, but much of the time that anger is another emotion misplaced and it's hard to slow down and take that half a second to think about what’s really going on inside. I'm prone to anxiety and depression and I can withdraw and feel shame when it hits. My diet's not great and I probably drink more than I should, but, it's a process, right? And we talked about that too, so let's have a little grace with ourselves, realize that we've been handicapped, in a way, by our culture, and that the work never ends.
The protege effect is a psychological phenomenon where teaching, pretending to teach, or preparing to teach information to others helps a person learn that information. For example, a student who is studying for an exam could benefit from the protege effect and improve their understanding of the material by teaching that material to their peers. I feel like part of this project is an exercise in that. And I might be doing this for myself more than I'm doing it for you, but maybe you can reinforce positive masculinity with the men in your life. Let's be vulnerable with each other, guys, and do this together. I’m going to have many more conversations on this topic here at HoosLeft, beginning next week as I invite Butler student Dylan Noble to talk about the young men in Gen Z.
Until then, here are some books that might help your exploration as they’ve helped me. Links to all of these are available in the show notes.
, For the Love of Men: From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity. Absolutely, absolutely necessary. A great book. I recommend it to everybody. She’s also on Substack now - her newsletter is called Airplane Mode. Trying to get her on the show.Terrence Real is a psychologist and has several books, but the one I read is called How Can I Get Through to You: Closing the Intimacy Gap Between Men and Women. Especially good for those of us in heterosexual relationships.
Justin Baldoni, the guy who played the male lead on Jane the Virgin, wrote a book called Man Enough: Undefining My Masculinity. You might not think you would find such an important book from this guy, but it’s incredibly powerful and it's not fair - he writes beautifully, he's a talented actor and is incredibly good-looking. Hey buddy, save some for the rest of us.
Finally, another one I’ve read in the year since this originally published is The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by the iconic bell hooks, another must read.
And obviously, again, Jared Yates Sexton, The Man They Wanted Me to Be: Toxic Masculinity and a Crisis of Our Own Making. Christmas is coming up. Buy two copies for the men in your life, one for them and one they can share with a male friend.
Thank you for reading, and thanks again to Jared for that interview. You can find him on BlueSky and X at jysexton. His must-subscribe YouTube channel is at the same handle. Also check out his Muckrake Political Podcast with co-host Nick Hauselman as well as Dispatches From a Collapsing State at jaredyatessexton.substack.com. And while you’re checking out Hoosier writers on Substack, head on over to scottaaronrogers.substack.com and help support this project with a paid subscription.
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